Episode Transcript
[00:00:09] Speaker A: You're listening to selling the dream. This isn't an interview, and we're not journalists. But each week, we'll ask our guests to open up and share their secrets to business success. Let's have a conversation and have some fun.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Hey, everybody, welcome to. Welcome to selling the dream. We have a wonderful show for you today. We are super excited to have on a guest who was such a great guest last time, we decided to have him on again. We're not going to waste a whole lot of time getting into it, but before we start, just want to say hello to my co host, Joe. I know. Joe. What's happening, bro?
[00:00:49] Speaker C: KJ. Another day.
Another beautiful day, man. Ready to get this thing rocking.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: It's like 80 degrees here. It feels like this must be what you're used to.
[00:01:02] Speaker C: Normally what we would be used to. We've had quite a winter of rain and not the best, but it is seemingly back to normal here, too. It's beautiful. 80 degrees.
Not too upset to pay the California sun sunshine tax anymore, man. It's. It's nice. So that's easy for you.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: Say we got 80 degree weather here. We got the. The broad street run next week. So I just got done. Just got done a run.
Barely could tell. Can you with that hair. Look at that.
See, for those people that don't know, that broad street run is a ten mile run from North Philly to South Philly. It's straight, it's downhill, it's a nice, easy run. So me and Amy are gonna run it next weekend, so we're super excited.
[00:01:49] Speaker C: Do they still have. This is completely unrelated question, but I went back to Philly in a while. They still have cabs in Philly, or is it mostly all ubers now having nothing to do with your run, man, that's not why I thought of that. But.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: I usually catch an Uber somewhere near temple and I get out somewhere near the stadium.
[00:02:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: All right, let's. Let's bring our guy on.
Jay Duran, one of the MVP's of selling the dream podcast. Great guest and also makes so many introductions for us for guests on the show and just. Just as always, an awesome guy to talk to and have on. So, Jay, thanks for joining us again, my man.
[00:02:39] Speaker D: Oh, my pleasure.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: Big update since the last time you were on big, big life event. Check. What happened since the last time we talked.
[00:02:51] Speaker D: Well, I made a couple sales.
No.
[00:02:58] Speaker B: One of the biggest sales of your life.
[00:03:01] Speaker D: Yeah. Is this the two truths in a lie yet or.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: No, we're not there yet. This is this.
[00:03:08] Speaker D: Yeah. I mean, we moved to.
Yeah, I'm starting to tell people about this because for a couple years, you know, I was really. I really didn't want anyone to know where we lived, which we can unpack, maybe in part three therapy with Jay. But, like, I wasn't even checking in. But we moved to the west side of Florida from the east side.
I don't think I ever.
I didn't, I didn't, I didn't. We didn't. We didn't become a part of the community on the east side of Florida, but we moved to Naples, and I think his name was Reuben, who actually helped us with our vows. We went to the local city hall and stood before Reuben. I think that's his name, because I might name a dog after this guy. And, you know.
[00:04:03] Speaker C: By any chance, you.
[00:04:06] Speaker D: Know, the parent the in laws flew down and very intimate interaction, you know, haven't done that before. So, yeah, we're married officially. Got the. Are you guys Lord of the Rings fans?
[00:04:20] Speaker B: Got my ring now, but one ring.
[00:04:24] Speaker D: To rule them all. I think I've already asked you this. Yeah.
[00:04:26] Speaker B: Have one rule.
[00:04:29] Speaker D: Run ring to bind them. I got my lord of the Rings inscription in there. I'm very happy about it, but, yeah. So we live in Naples now. Unbelievable. The air is clean.
You know, one, I think it's one in 100 or 500 and 100,000. Homicide rate fairly safe. And I don't know.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: I don't have a frame of reference.
[00:04:52] Speaker C: I'm assuming that.
[00:04:54] Speaker D: Let's not.
Yeah. Average age is 66 and a half. Best schooling in the country.
[00:05:02] Speaker C: Long as you're not the one very happy.
[00:05:06] Speaker D: So, yeah. Thanks for bringing that up. I appreciate it.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: You bet, man. Let's start with a quote. I always let you know this is something you do on your show that I absolutely love. So when we have you on, I like to reciprocate and an honor culture Matters podcast. If anybody hasn't had a chance to listen to it, every episode brings just value. So jump on there and check it out. But it's from 30 days of thought. Life is a give and take.
Life is nothing but a give and take. The intent to give without expectation combined with the willingness to take reparations.
Why is it's so important to be willing to take in this world? Like, why is that. Why is. Why is that so important? We're going to dive into that in a few minutes. But before we do that, Joe, we always play two truths and a lie. Last time we had Jay on, we were not doing the two truths and a lie yet. So we're going to start our podcast today with two truths and a lie. We're going to wrap up and see if you can figure out which one was the lie. Now, Jay is not good at lying, so he says, this one's going to be an easy one for you.
[00:06:17] Speaker C: That could be the lie, though. You don't know.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: It could be.
[00:06:21] Speaker C: It could be master sass lying, and he's already set us up. So let's see.
[00:06:28] Speaker B: Give us three statements. Two of them have to be true and one has to be false, and we'll try and figure out which one it is.
[00:06:36] Speaker D: This is a great introduction to a podcast.
Culture matters, and I love my wife.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: All right, that's a setup.
[00:06:55] Speaker C: Hold on a second.
[00:06:56] Speaker D: Nice job.
[00:06:57] Speaker C: All right, we'll come back to that.
[00:07:00] Speaker B: At the end of the episode.
Well done.
All right, so. So let's. Let's jump into it, man. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about give and take, especially, you know, in light of, you know, your. Your recent marriage, and Joe is married. I'm married. You know, the relationship. The partnership with your spouse is in so many ways similar to the partnership that you have with friends. It's similar to the partnership you have with business associates. And. And. And it is. It is give and take. But I've always struggled. I think a lot of people struggle with the whole second part of that equation, that the willingness to receive is a tough thing. So let's talk about that. Jay, why did you write that chapter?
[00:07:46] Speaker D: I think because I struggle with it, even if I wasn't aware at the time, because a lot of what that book is, is a meditation of things that I'm working on, some aware that I'm working on them, some less. So, no, I think I've always struggled with the take. I mean, the. Seeing culture matters is. Stands for collaboration.
Give first, intend to help and get started today. I think it's taken years for me to even recognize how bad I am at the get started today part, asking for something back.
Um, you know, ironically, I don't think that necessarily infers that I don't take. I've taken so much, you know, from people, like, not even trying to. Not being, uh, in a position to fully give.
So I think the reason that I wrote, yeah, I think I struggle with that.
And at the same time, in other contexts, you might run across people that would say to you, oh, no, Jay's really good. He's so good. He thinks he's bad. So I guess it depends who you ask who you want to talk to, my enemies or people that consider themselves my friends.
But I think that I had to learn how to say no more at one point.
If you go to the back, towards the back of the book, there's saying no to the homeless. It's about. It's a metaphor for creating boundaries, for standing up for oneself, having an honest conversation with oneself through the metaphor of the homeless. Or maybe quite literally, that would be somebody that is without home that I could easily lie to or avoid or kind of just, like, not pay attention to. But I would, like, actually put myself in this position to say no.
Like, to look at somebody and say, hey, I'm Jay. What's your name? Like, no, I don't want to do that. You know, I'm sorry if that hurts you.
And then I went from that psychology, trying to, like, create a level of boundaries and being. Be able to not be self deceiving and avoid the conflict to. Now it's like, man, I better give.
I've gone from the no to the radical yes. And it's like knowing when to switch one on and one off and when is the right time to say no. And when is the right time to say yes. So I think that's what comes up. When you ask me that question about taking. It's like, well. Well, it's also, you know, is it taking or is it accepting? Like, how much value have I actually given? Why am I not asking, you know, do I even know how much value I've given or not given?
I mean, that opens up another part of the conversation. But I think I was writing that because it's something I'm struck. I I've struggled with is standing up for myself, speaking my mind, creating, you know, boundaries.
So that would be my immediate thought on it.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: Joe, let me ask you a question. As we're talking about this give and take, and I know, Jay, you probably read, was it Berger's book, the five laws of stratospheric success? The go giver. Have you read the go giver?
[00:11:29] Speaker D: Yeah, I listened to. I've listened to it.
[00:11:31] Speaker B: So. So the fifth law is the law of receptivity, the law of your willingness to receive.
Why, Joe, why would that be one of the five and most important things, like, in your mind? And I have my answer, and I'm not, you know, I'll share in a minute, but why do you think it's so important to be willing to receive?
[00:11:54] Speaker C: Because for me, I've actually struggled with this too. And I think anybody who's who's driven and like, I don't, I think it becomes like an egotistical thing where it's like you almost, you don't want to ask for help. You want to be like, I can handle this. I don't need anybody's help. I'm going to do this. And I started to feel like I'm putting people out by accepting their, their help in my world and actually what was happening. And, you know, I was still struggling with this too. But like, by not, by denying someone's offer to help you or by refusing to ask someone to help you with a certain thing that they could be good at, you're actually, you're denying their gift that they give to the world and they could be giving to you. So it becomes so one sided that you're like, if you're just, I'm gonna, I'm the driver, I'm gonna do this and I can, I'll take care of you and you and you and you and you don't let someone reciprocate that and take care of you back or take care of other people. Then it's, it's chaos. Like nothing, nothing gets accomplished and you're at, you're denying someone else their chance to feel good about themselves for helping somebody else. So that's what, that's what I've come to understand. But it's still, it's so uncomfortable for me even for the dumbest things. Like we just, Joey had a birthday party we had on the beach, whatever. My neighbor, we like share a garage, right? There's a cooler in there. We needed a cooler, right? I've let him bought, he borrows all of my stuff, no problem. I don't even think about like, yeah, you have it. And it was so difficult for me to send a text to him like, hey man, can I borrow your cooler? Like, I just didn't want to do it because I'm like, I don't want to ask. I don't put him out. Like, maybe he needs it like this kind of stuff. And he was psyched cuz like all of the times that like we're always, you know, I'm letting him stop. How about like he was really excited to like reciprocate that and I, for some reason, for me I was just like, ah, dude, like, it's so uncomfortable for me to ask people for stuff like that. But you know, I try to get over, I'm like, this guy's like excited that he just was able to help out, you know, like don't deny him.
[00:14:13] Speaker B: So I think you hit on. I think you hit on the main. The main point for me is, you know, the best thing you can do for someone sometimes is to let them give you something they want to, especially the people we love. That's the other thing.
[00:14:27] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: You know, we're so willing to, like, do someone a favor, but we don't want to ask for a favor. I think that one of the best things you can do is to ask for a favor, because then you just open up an opportunity for someone who cares about you to do something for you and make them feel good about it. Like, there's this, like, debit system that people don't want to be in debt to anyone, whether it's in money and favor. But I just think that, you know, as long as you're honest with yourself about the fact that you're giving as openly as possible and as many opportunities to make deposits into other people's worlds and. And for the good, then I think that the next step is to then give them the opportunity to give, too, because we all know how good it feels to give. I will tell you, there's nothing better than when my brother needs a hand with something and he calls me. Number one, I'm honored that I'm the one he called. It means he can count on me. Number two, I get to go spend some time with him in that situation, but really help him. And he doesn't even realize all the things he's done for me over the years, because, like you said, he's got a gift of, you know, he's handy. You know, he's electrician, and there are times where something that would take me hours takes him 20 minutes. He doesn't. He doesn't chalk that up as a huge favor. He doesn't know. In my world, that was huge for me, you know? And I think that, you know, that that's where the balance kind of really, like, it's hard to measure it all out. So you just got to be willing to give as much as possible and then. And then be willing to receive, too.
[00:15:56] Speaker C: Yeah, well, this goes to Jay's point, too. So to be able to get people comfortable with asking you for stuff and vice versa, is that if you have clear boundaries, if you tell people no all the time, I think that they're more willing to ask because they know that if it's. If it's inconvenient to you, you're not just going to do it begrudgingly. You'll be like, nope. I can't do that. So, like, that's another, like, really good benefit of just being very clear in your boundaries and letting people know, you know, like, what's appropriate that, like, what you're willing to do, what you're not willing to do, but if you don't ask the worst. How many times have you heard someone be like, oh, I got a flat tire. Like, had a bad day or whatever, and, like, you're just like, dude, I was right there. Why did you just call me? Like, you could have fixed this, like, no problem. And, you know, like, so that's. That happens a lot, too. So it's definitely. It's not easy. It's. It's really a. You have to almost check your ego and ask for help and, you know, trust that the person hopefully had set boundaries and is willing to tell you no. And then that's when it's, like, you have to trust your instincts of, like, feeling people out. Like, are they doing it, like, because they feel they have to, or do they want to? Or, like. You know what I mean? So, like, that's kind of a weird thing, too, but.
[00:17:20] Speaker D: I was more of a taker when I didn't listen.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:17:33] Speaker C: Roger that. Roger that.
[00:17:37] Speaker B: I'm listening.
[00:17:40] Speaker C: I see what you did there.
[00:17:41] Speaker D: So wrapped up. Yeah. I was so wrapped up in the euphoria of my vision and where I was trying to go and how quickly I could get there. And I wasn't doing it on purpose, but people were a means to my end, for sure.
And I don't consider myself a bad person in that. Right? I don't think any. It was. It's like the unintentional asshole.
And I think I've won a couple awards for that.
And, in fact. And I don't think it's even fair to put this in a past tense, because I have my own agenda, right? Why am I doing this show?
I have an agenda. I want to get better at talking again. I feel like I'm a baby in a womb, coming out of the womb, and I need to learn how to crawl before I walk, walk before I run, run before I fly, and then. But I'm more conscious now. It's like, I don't.
I'm more conscious of the both of you.
I'm more conscious of the listeners. I'm not just gonna let myself go into an emotional temporal distortion as, you know, where time and space stop, and I'm.
This turns into a therapy session for me, where I'm just rambling on about culture for 47 minutes. So, yeah, I'm better at taking now, I think, because I'm more aware of when I'm giving versus what I'm taking. And I think the shows helped me with it.
Performing the journalistic endeavor, preparing, catching myself when I want to interject.
So those are some thoughts. What do you think, Ken? You seem like you've deeply in thought.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: I was doing the head nod, like, oh, I got something to say.
It's hard. It's difficult.
[00:19:55] Speaker D: I get.
[00:19:56] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like we all need this practice of, you know, of giving. Giving. Not just giving someone else a chance to talk, for crying out loud. Right.
I do.
It's an awareness.
What practice? What can we, you know, what are some of the things you've done that our listeners could do to be more aware of their giving and taking?
The unintentional asshole, to me, means the person who's just not aware of the rest of the reciprocal relationship or the balance imbalance, or if there is an imbalance. I mean, are there things that we can do to be more aware of that or what's gotten. Where do you think you've gotten your awareness from?
[00:20:50] Speaker D: Oh, I think part of it is if I see it in someone else, if I think that's what it is in someone else, I'm going to separate them from the group and I'm going to tell them what I think about them respectfully.
And if they are upset with that, I need to make sure not to be mean to them if they're mean to me.
So it's you two wrongs don't make it right. So, like, that's been a good practice, is telling people what I think about their behavior in a respectful way that decreases the likelihood of them being shamed or feeling shame in a group setting.
And I think some of it, or a big part of it, is the practice of the interviews has helped me slow down and be more present and kind of see the whole chessboard and a greater width. I mean, these are executive.
We're developing executive presence. When we do these shows relative to how we do them or in respect to how we do them. Right. Preparation, engagement, you know, the note taking that I do now that I didn't do in the past, I want to become not only a stronger, more. Yeah, let's say, a more courageous person. I want to be a more successful advisor. I want to be a more successful business owner. And these practices, this practice has helped me be those things, I believe.
So those are two examples, right? Seeing something in someone else that I don't align with and depending on the relationship, like, you know, maybe talking about it, you know, that might sound awkward.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: Well, it takes courage to do.
And it also, you. You really do have to hold yourself to a higher level of accountability if you're going to respectfully and tastefully, if you're going to call someone else out and say, okay, here's what I'm seeing in you, and risking the reaction because you don't really know how it's going to happen. Like, of course that takes courage, but it also takes a pretty high level of accountability on your part. And you say, okay, if I'm going to take this on this responsibility of letting someone know when their behavior is not in line with where you think it should be or with you, then you better be sure you're kind of, you know, walking the walk, right.
[00:23:47] Speaker D: I mean, I also.
Well, I also. Well, I'm never. I don't think I'm gonna walk the walk in a straight line because I'm.
It's not. I'm not so. Meaning, how open am I to the feedback myself?
And why would I want anyone to give me critical feedback? I'm the best.
I'm perfect, right? Or, you know, I'm on this podcast, right? I wrote a book once.
Everyone who I love, the shirt hug dealer.
Do you know that I'm an author, self published.
I am. I I, you know, I. It's like, just what?
So that, meaning I have to be able to handle the feedback.
If I'm giving you feedback of something, I think it could improve. I better be able to handle the feedback that I get back. And if you don't feel safe to share with me, this isn't. I haven't created that leadership.
I haven't created that environment where.
And this is the worst part. You might be so correct about what you think of me.
I might react so quickly, I can't even control it. I'm gonna have to spend a lot of time apologizing, like, I become a great apologizer, because that's, like, all I can do at this point, letting people down so much in how I behave.
So I would say it's got to, you know, I'm imperfect. I'm not walking a straight line. I'm not doing all of this because I haven't figured out. I'm doing all this because I need to figure it out.
And I have yet to meet any person of standing that wasn't working on figuring it out.
And at some, you know, so. And they're there. They may not be aware. I mean, awareness is on a spectrum, so depending what they're doing with their lives, you know, they. Because we could do all sorts of things, not think about what we're actually up to, you know? How many drinks have I had today?
Only five before the podcast, you know, or obviously I've been drinking years, but, you know, you talk to somebody, oh, I only drink every night.
I'm okay, you know, and I don't. I'm not laughing.
I'm not laughing at them. I'm crying for me.
So, you know, if you want to have a lighter conversation, we could do that too. By the way, I just.
Heavy again, I think, because it's. It's that time of day, baby.
Um, yeah, those are some fleeting thoughts, though. I mean, practicing listening, being more vulnerable.
Okay, if I'm asking you what you think I can improve on, that's an action of vulnerability.
I don't want your actual opinion of what I can improve on because it. Then that means I might have to change my behavior and that I'm not perfect.
I mean, I'm the one with the title. Haven't you seen my book?
[00:27:34] Speaker C: There it is.
[00:27:35] Speaker D: Haven't you seen my book?
I am an authority, an author.
It's like.
No, it's. I wrote some thoughts that may or may not have value that was published, you know, even if it was through an institution, you know, it likely was pay to play.
So, yeah, I think it's important to have feedback both ways. It's also probably not can be. It can break down. Like in times of crisis, you can't get everybody's opinion right. You'll go out of business.
How do we get everybody's opinion?
[00:28:17] Speaker B: No, I mean, you're right. In times of crisis, you gotta be more, you know, commander's intent, you know.
[00:28:25] Speaker C: Just get the opinions all the time, though. Why do you have to wait till a time of crisis?
Why can't you always have think you should?
[00:28:34] Speaker B: I think, well, I mean, how much time do you have to walk around and ask everybody what they think?
Right? I mean, you could, but usually it's not. You swear, crisis, but usually there's a catalyst to. To gain and getting feedback from someone. Even just take, you know, take a friendship or a marriage. Like, sometimes that feedback says sitting there waiting to be given, but it takes a catalyst, it takes an argument or conflict to bring about the honesty and the feedback to. For some people, that's where they get their courage in the. In the heat of the conflict. And then they're gonna say how they really feel, you know, not necessarily crisis, but I want to bring up, I want to go back to something you said about the courage it takes to.
To give people feedback, but also the unintentional asshole. I think that when we come to terms with ourselves as an asshole, right, when we realize that we are all assholes and I'm no different, that was one of them. That was an important, that was an important revelation for me to know. Like you said, that I'm not perfect. Like you want to be perfect, but you literally have to just come to terms with the fact that, yes, I am. I am. I am as imperfect as it gets.
And give yourself grace for being imperfect. But then the next step of being generous with the graciousness of other people who are also not perfect, I think that create a lot of peace in my life, really, you know, because I was no longer being hyper critical of myself, just accepting my imperfections, but then at the same time, accepting other people's imperfections, and a lot of conflict went away. Internal conflict and external conflict.
I mean, Joe, for instance, I mean, he's an asshole, and I let that go years ago. That's true.
[00:30:36] Speaker D: What do you think, Joe?
[00:30:39] Speaker C: Well, lucky for me, we all know Kenny is definitely.
[00:30:49] Speaker D: My recommendation was, uh.
[00:30:54] Speaker C: Long history of that, doesn't he?
[00:30:56] Speaker D: My recommendation was in private, by the way, not in front of 10,000 people. 10,000 people.
[00:31:04] Speaker B: Let me write that one down.
[00:31:06] Speaker D: I forgot that millions are listening to this.
Oh, I want to add something to get your guys feedback on disengaged.
Disengagement from leadership creates a lot of problems.
Like there's a time for work and there's a time for play, there's a time for rest.
You know, Joe brought up times of crisis. Like when there's crisis, industry crisis, company crisis. We need our leaders to be bought in meaning. And it's not going to be a talking thing. It's going to be a showing thing. And not everybody's bought in. And there could be seasons. Like, there could be there. There could be a season where I'm not bought in anymore.
Something is a higher priority. Maybe it's a new board, maybe it's liquidating a stock that now, you know, the financial situation is different, and there isn't somebody running after me in a gorilla suit, chasing me for credit card payments.
Little Freudian slip there, so.
But, but there's consequences. Where I'm going, there's consequences.
You know, we have people. Our customers are relying on us. Our employees are relying on us. They need to believe and we're cut. You know, so I, the lack of engagement has consequences.
My confidence is higher when I'm engaged, when I'm, you know, it's alright. I said I would be earth this time for you guys.
Here we are. We're talking about this next meeting is at 515.
Then I'm doing this.
You know, I didn't want to get up this morning but I wind my way up to the celsius that I drank to get that first meeting going at seven. So engagement I think has plays a role in all this conversation with saying no and saying yes, having boundaries, asking, you know, if, if I really feel like I'm putting it all on the table, I should be able to ask.
That's, I, I should be able to ask.
I shouldn't feel so attacked. Like I should be able to give.
I'm not operating from a reactive scarce psychology, but it's seasonal. Like, I might just have people listening. This may have just had their best years in business and that influenced their behavior and then the macroeconomics changed and now they need new behavior and they're revving up the engine and they forgot how to rev it up.
Like, so those are, those are some thoughts. Like engagement has a consequence positive negative on, on the company, on the business, the family, whatever relationship podcast. Like you guys are doing so many pod, you know, you're recording so many episodes. Engagement, we're releasing more now than ever and we're seeing, you know, the numbers going up in downloads and all that. So engagement has consequences. I'm not trying to make a moral claim, at least I'm not. I don't think I am. I may be at some level I likely am as a result of me feeling proud that I'm engaged. So, you know, it's all just a bunch of mental masturbation at this point.
[00:34:46] Speaker B: Joe, on that note, go back to Covid. In your business. In your business during the time you were doing a lot of reputation management with the restaurants and you were in retail, that you were sure sites was doing a lot of work with retail and they, of all of the industries that you would say really got hit the most, the companies that you were serving at the time, they really, they really got impacted and especially even more so in your state. And if you view yourself, and I do believe that a business owner is a leader, whether they have a huge company or they just have a lot of customers, they're leading in a lot of ways. And in your case, how did you utilize engagement in that time of crisis for your customers who basically were looking around like, what are we going to do? Like, this is horrible. Like, this is, this is, this is a crisis. How did you, how did you approach that? And did you find yourself more engaged with your customers during that time than ever before?
[00:35:48] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. So one of the benefits, actually, of having customers, like nationwide customers and all different verticals and things like that was we were able to really just, like, for lack of a better term, like crowdsource solutions. So, you know, I have a, and I really did reach out to everybody because whether I wanted to or not, they're like, what is going on? Because, you know, a lot of the stuff that we do is the lifeblood, especially for service industries. You know, people who are looking for plumbers or personal injury return, whatever, they go online. And so once that dries up, they're like, dude, no one's called, we can't go out the houses. We can't do this. What do we do? And so I was like, well, I have a guy in New York that's doing this, and I don't know if it's going to work in Florida, but it worked for our guy in Texas. So try this. And then they try this. We tried this. So it was cool because I was getting feedback of what's working, what's not working across the country and different, you know, verticals and things that I was able to then communicate to all of our customers and, you know, get really almost instantaneous feedback on some ideas or thoughts of, you know, what was going, what was keeping the businesses afloat at that time. And actually what the, some of the businesses didn't make it. And a lot of them went from doing okay to absolutely exponentially crushing their markets. And it's the guys who weren't scared during COVID and kind of leaned into it and doubled down on their investment and their business and their marketing and things like that. That, and if you recall, like, nobody knew what, how long that was going to last or whatever, but, you know, certainly you could predict that it wasn't going to last forever and everything was going to eventually come back. So the guys who had the balls to, like, step it up when it came back, I mean, they're on side. They crushed the market. They gained so much market share because they trusted the fact that, you know, lean into your business when times are bad. So that's kind of, that was the biggest takeaway that I got. But everything that we were just talked about previous to this, and it's, I think there's too many words. I think people just talk about shit too much, and it just, it just, it becomes almost, like, not even useful because we start talking about feelings and this and that. Whatever. No offense, Jay, culture matters, but the whole thing is if you have. So there's all these acronyms for, like, accountability, measurement and improvement, whether it's like, personally, business wise, or whatever. Like, if you're like World War Two, they called it like, ooda loop, like the fighter pilots, and like, someone call it like, sip the, or, like, scan, predict, interpret, decide, execute. So these, like, full loop decision making acronyms where you assess the situation in front of you. You basically predict what you think is going to happen. You decide how you're going to approach it, and then you execute on that. Interpretation is in their eyes in there. So then you execute. And once you execute, then you reevaluate and you start the process over and over and over. So, like, that's where it is. When you're asking for people's opinions and feelings and all that kind of shit. It doesn't matter. Like, if you are in a crisis situation, you should be doing this at a higher frequency, but you should be doing this at a higher frequency all the time. And one of the common threads that we've seen with people that we've had on and other really successful business owners and entrepreneurs that I know that they, it's unfortunate, but a lot of them have a common thread that they went through some sort of tragedy in their life that was, that heightened. This spidey sense of like, shit like, this is what's important. This is how I have to do this. This is why I do this. And it puts that stress on them that then draws out, like, this really efficient way to just navigate through bullshit and kind of do that. But the problem is, like, you don't want a tragedy to bring that out of you. So there are things that you can do if you have these mechanisms in your mind is like, okay, I'm going to scan, I'm going to predict or interpret, decide, execute. Everything that you do, whether it's business, whatever, that when you just get that into your mantra of every day, you do it naturally. Then you're like, your opinion of other people, or like, how people are giving you feedback and things like that. That all goes into the interpret, it goes into the skin, it goes into every step of that. So, you know, getting back to your question of COVID that just got that heightened, it, it's like, all right, shit. Like, okay, what are we looking at? What's happening? Right now, what do we think is going to happen? Okay, this is what we predict now. We're going to execute on this prediction, and then we're going to decide, and we're going to start the circle again. So that's how. That's how it kind of came through. And we haven't. I haven't stopped doing that. Like, I do that every single day. I reevaluate everything I did during the day, you know, and everything in my personal life, my fitness, you know, when I train for fights on, you know, everything. So it all is that circle of decision making and interpretation. So.
[00:41:28] Speaker B: Jay, to your.
And, yes, I agree, Joe, with a lot of what you said, but I think, Jay, I mean, what I heard was, first of all, it takes a willingness to be engaged as a leader. Right? Like, that's number one. Like, you can't even help anybody unless you're present. And an engagement in two ways is important if you want the credibility to be able to make quick decisions and expect people to follow.
But also, engagement is also contagious, and enthusiastic enthusiasm is part of engagement is contagious. Like you said, the seasons. Like, yes, there are times where, like, maybe you just kind of don't feel like doing certain things. And when you find yourself in that place, whether you meant to find yourself there or not, you do, you start to see, like, a kind of a dissipation of energy where that is no longer, certain things are no longer important to not just you, but the people around you that it was important for a while. Is that okay? Is it okay to be kind of enthusiastic about stuff sometimes and let it ebb and flow and move with the seasons? Are we, as podcast hosts, obligated to maintain that high level of buy in and engagement at all times? How do you, do you hold yourself to that level of accountability with culture, math?
[00:42:51] Speaker C: No, it's not okay.
[00:42:53] Speaker D: What, Joe?
[00:42:54] Speaker C: Yeah, it's not okay. I'm gonna just say this. I'll let you answer because I don't.
[00:42:58] Speaker D: Yeah, I want you to. I want to know what you think.
[00:43:00] Speaker C: Near and dear to my heart that if you. I'll just take a workout analogy. If you worked out every time that you were excited or inspired to work out, you'd probably never work out. So it is where its discipline and its routine takes over when inspiration goes away. So when you set up the structure and you have a discipline and you have a routine in place, then that will carry you through and make you consistent with anything that you do. So you're not, I tell my kids, they get up, they train every morning at six, and I tell them, there are days where you're gonna hate this, right? And those are the best days. Like, those are the days you'll get the most out of it. But your success is a collection of little grains of sand. Like, you're not going to see results day one, and I probably see results day ten, you're going to see results over time. And you can look at you, you can do things, a positive or negative, just keep it very simple, like binary. If you add up negatives by the end of this however long time period, you're going to look back, you're going to get a negative result. If you add up positives over that time period, you're going to have a positive result. But you cannot, like, you can't do it when you feel like doing it. You have to use discipline and routine every day to do the same thing to get the result. And it doesn't have anything to do with talent, skills, intelligence, anything, it just has to do with consistency. And it's, no matter what, you could be the worst at something, but if you do it consistently, whether you want to or not, you're going to get the end result. If you're adding a positive throughout that process, and it's that simple, there's no trick to it, it's just consistency and discipline. You can do anything in the world. So that's my two cent.
[00:44:55] Speaker B: Jay.
[00:44:57] Speaker D: I wrote down, responsibility is all that's there when there's no accountability.
So if I am in control, on the absolute authority of the business, I'm not. It's not a public company, I'm not working for shareholders, I'm not accountable to a board of directors, and I don't feel like doing it that day, you know, to Joe's point, well, then what happens?
I don't have to do it. Who am I accountable to? My mom's not calling me and telling me to get out of bed.
So responsibility is all that's there when there's no accountability.
So our, you know, that person that's in complete control over the destiny, the service of the customers, the employees, upward mobility, their ability to get raises and make more money and provide for their families, that has a relationship with whoever is in control of the company's fate, which would be the ownership.
And that's my question, you know, if and who are they accountable to?
Well, they're accountable to the bank.
The bank.
They're accountable to their bank account. And there's a distinction, right? The bank will be the loans, the bank account would be, how much money is in there.
They're, we're accountable if we're in ownership to the market.
But you might not see for a long time the irresponsibility.
You may not see it for a year.
You may not see. So, you know, to Joe's point.
[00:47:01] Speaker C: Look at people.
[00:47:03] Speaker D: Go ahead.
[00:47:03] Speaker C: Yeah, look at people who smoke smokers. You don't die when you smoke your first cigarette and probably won't die when you smoke your second cigarette. But ultimately, over time, it gets you. It's everything. So it's these, these are very little, you know, things that add up. It's like compounding interest. And, like, that's, that's how I've shifted, like, home. My whole thinking about it, it's to your, like, you're hitting it right on the head. It's not one thing, it's a butterfly effect.
[00:47:32] Speaker D: But in the defense of the listeners and us, really, we're all customers of this culture right now, this business culture, everything I read, like I get influenced by on the Internet as it relates to business, is telling me that I should feel, even if it's not saying it explicitly, like the narrative is, I should feel less than if I'm working, period.
You know, I should, as a business owner, have this unbelievable machine that prints money.
And I would argue that that culture creates disengaged leaders.
Disengaged if I can't run my company from my yacht or if I can't work from home.
But the. It's not, I don't think it's true. I think it's a half truth. Like, there's some truth.
But ultimately, that narrative that I see in all the business books and things like passive this, that it, um. I think it's undoing responsibility.
And, you know, who, who are we accountable to?
And then, of course we are. We can well be accountable to our people relative to how well we can hear them.
So maybe our people aren't telling us what they think, you know, the people that work for us. Maybe our customers aren't telling us that they're not satisfied with the serving the service. Or, or maybe we send out the survey, but we don't read the survey.
[00:49:31] Speaker C: The reality, I think I just heard this recently, too, and the reality is most business owners, most entrepreneurs, probably 90% of them, they would do better with just a regular job. And the reason why I say this is, if you're an entrepreneur and you are running a business, then this business should provide for you two things. And if it doesn't provide both, go get a regular job. Number one is financial freedom, more money than you could get if you had a regular job.
And number two, it should provide you actual freedom, the time to spend doing things with your family or, like, what you would want to do above and beyond if you had a regular job. And if you don't have those two things, which I truly believe probably only 5% of entrepreneurs have figured that out and do, then you should just get a regular job because it's not worth it. Like, all the headaches, everything that we're talking about that having to do with working in a business and running a business, it's not worth it when you can just make probably the same amount of money and turn your brain off at 05:00 and let, you know, other people worry about it. So that's the, you know, that's where it's like, are we talking about the masses, people who are, like, 90% of business owners or leaders and so forth? We're, like, doing it for the wrong reasons? Or is it the 10% who have it figured out? That's like, that's the difference, in my opinion. It's like.
[00:51:08] Speaker D: I would say, say that it's a paradox, because with the actual freedom, it's like the pursuit of happiness.
It's a pursuit.
It's actually not about happiness whatsoever.
It's about output.
This is the most efficient output mechanism for human cattle.
Pursuit of happiness.
It's pursuit. It's not the happiness factor. It's the pursuit. So, like, the pursuit of financial freedom is, you know, achieved through, it's really a financial. A feeling of independence, and it's a complete and other slavery to the labor of being the person ultimately in control of the fate of the institution. Like, and if so, this is the thing. If the person does get away, the point, there's consequences. There will be a coup.
There will be a hostile takeover. There will be, like, in the absence of the person, there will be some movement because, you know, everybody's vying for the same thing. That isn't real. It's only a psychological. It's only psychologically real. It's the pursuit. So I would generally, I challenge people to just think, you know, maybe lean into the discomforts and the things that, like, a lot of the time, the journey sucks because we suck with the journey.
You know, we don't want to have that conversation with the person that we need to have it with. We don't want to fire the person that's, you know, killing half the company's values. We don't want to call that client back because, you know, if we call them, we're not sure how to have the conversation, or, you know, we could lose the company if we call them or, you know, we don't. We don't want to work like we did in the beginning because we have other priorities. And that's all fine. That's all well and good. My point in this point part is there are. There are consequences to it, and not every business.
Well, that's the other thing, too, because the business is function, is the business exists to serve a customer, and the business, a business has to grow in perpetuity to fulfill its function.
But it doesn't have to do anything. It'll do whatever.
It'll adapt to the behavior, the behaviors of those that control its fate.
That would be the ownership structure. It will adapt to the relationships, the resources, and the reasons that the founding members give it. And ultimately, like, these businesses that we have are our own self creations, and they're, you know, it's. So we'll get out of it what we think we want. But kind of where. I don't believe in the fin. I don't believe in any freedom, I guess, is what I'm trying to say is I think it's a state of mind more than is an actual outcome. Let's say happenstance, and there are consequences.
Let's say that it's like a solar system. You have the sun and then you have Earth and you have Mars and you have Pluto.
The closer the matter is to the power source, the hotter it is. It's too.
I'm, like, too much in my business. I'm not giving people space to perform their daily functions, to rise up and really grow into their own person through the business. So I'm not letting enough space happen between myself as the originating job description and this new hire that's now taking that job description, then you have the other side of it. There's enough people where I could kind of check out for my business and not be leading my business under the guise that I am leading my business because my name is on the business or I'm writing the checks. That's like Pluto. It's too far away from the sun. And now there won't be life on that planet either. There's not going to be life on Pluto, and there's not going to be life on Mars, but there will be life on Earth. And if we are happy, slaves to. To the pursuit of happiness and business will have enough earths. Now, what happens when we have Earth is that humans eventually evolve, and they create technology to create ships, to go to other solar systems and inhabit other planets with other.
[00:56:00] Speaker C: You can tell them what planet you're gonna be hanging out on.
[00:56:03] Speaker D: And that's Berkshire. That's like, you know, that's like Berkshire Hathaway. That's like one of these giant conglomerates that they own this and they own that, and they. So at the end of the day, we're all dead. Who the fuck cares anyway? And this is just a fun conversation.
[00:56:19] Speaker B: I like the analogy of the sun, you know, the source of gravity. Without it, the planets aren't there anymore. I think that's. That's another really important part of it. But you know what? In our next conversation. I do. I do. Listen, I like the juxtaposition between, you know, full freedom and responsibility, because, you know, you can't. You can't.
You can't have freedom without responsibility. And sometimes taking too much responsibility infringes on your, you know, free to do whatever the hell you want whenever you want. So we'll talk about a little bit more about that in our next.
[00:56:56] Speaker D: Oh, that would be fun. Yeah. I mean, because if we are, if we don't show, if we're not as disciplined as Joe, the people will rise up and they will kill us.
[00:57:09] Speaker B: Or take over.
[00:57:10] Speaker C: That's true.
[00:57:11] Speaker D: This, you see, accompanies the bet. And by the way, that's okay, too, because in a culture, a great culture is okay with people leaving because it's not a cult. You know, where they go and try to kill everybody in your family if you leave North Korea.
It's an inevitability that some of the best employees that I ever have are going to leave me and create something better than I've created. It's an inevitability.
How I navigate that is going to reflect my values, and, I would argue, have an impact on how innovative am I actually today or in the future.
Anyway, so that's. Yeah, if we can unpack that some other time. Be fun. It's all just philosophizing anyway.
[00:58:04] Speaker B: Jay, you got a 515 that I want to honor. So, Joe, what were the three other three things? Which one was the lie.
[00:58:16] Speaker C: You'Re gonna have? You're gonna have to reread them back to me because the first one cut off when I was. You guys froze.
[00:58:23] Speaker D: I think it was. This is a great intro. Pluto is my favorite planet, and I love my wife.
[00:58:29] Speaker C: Okay, well, we know what your favorite planet is.
It also happens to be where Kenny hangs out a lot as well. So you mentioned you just got. You just got married, so guessing that you love your wife, and I will concede that that was not a great intro that we gave. So we're going to go with number one.
[00:58:55] Speaker D: Well, Pluto's not a planet anymore, according to Neil deGrasse Tyson.
[00:58:59] Speaker C: Well, you said it wasn't technicality.
[00:59:03] Speaker B: There was another guy that did a technicality. I can't remember his. I can't remember. Which was fun, man. It always is fun.
Joe, you did great today. Check your wi fi, though. Little spotty at times. But I think that if anyone's still listening, who the hell cares, right?
[00:59:24] Speaker D: We're doing this for us.
[00:59:27] Speaker B: All right, guys, I'll let you guys roll and we'll see you. See you next time. We got you on, Jake.
[00:59:34] Speaker D: Yeah, I would love it.
[00:59:38] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to selling the dream. We know you don't want to miss a single episode, so go subscribe today wherever you get your podcasts, and then make sure to share the show with your friends and leave us a review.
