Ep. 14 Talking with Jay Doran

[00:00:09] Speaker A: You're listening to selling the dream. This isn't an interview, and we're not journalists. But each week, we'll ask our guests to open up and share their secrets to business success. Let's have a conversation and have some fun. [00:00:24] Speaker B: I'm. I'm really looking forward to today, and I'm excited to kind of. We're going to start out a little bit loose. We're going to talk a little bit about the Phillies, but then we're going to get into it. And I'm inspired by the podcast I did with Jay where we didn't have an agenda, per se. We just let the conversation go and flow and see where this thing takes. [00:00:55] Speaker C: In. [00:00:55] Speaker B: All right, so first things first. Joe, did you watch the game last night? [00:01:02] Speaker C: I didn't watch all of it. I watched enough to know that we were. See, the whole deal is they scored too many runs in the first two games. You can't statistically, mathematically, I feel like in a playoff series, you have a certain amount of runs that you're going to get. If you get them all in the first two games, you're done. So our pitching sucked, too. So beyond that, I don't know. [00:01:28] Speaker B: It's hard to watch $800 million worth of bats, and they were like over 27. They didn't even have a hit in the last 17. [00:01:38] Speaker A: My question is, well, maybe I shouldn't ask because I don't want to mess the sports up. Does their coach have a coach? Like the Eagles coach has a coach? I know that I don't know. [00:01:49] Speaker B: You know that Siriani has a coach? Does he, Jay? [00:01:55] Speaker A: I'm asking, like, does a coach have a coach? Yeah, that's a good question. [00:01:59] Speaker B: When you get to that level, because I feel like everybody needs a, you know, multimillion billion dollar ceos that have coaches, right? So when you get to that level, you would think they have a coach. But he did get out coached. Topper got out coached. And I'm a big fan, but. [00:02:17] Speaker A: I. [00:02:18] Speaker B: Think the moment got a little too big for him, and it was sad. Did you watch? No. [00:02:25] Speaker A: I'm almost embarrassed. This is just reminding me how poorly I was socialized as a child. But this is why I do the culture thing, right? Because I'm like, I don't know how to talk about sports. I need to live a little. [00:02:37] Speaker B: Well, you're out doing the right kind of work. We're just dicking around with sports teams. [00:02:46] Speaker C: But I got to be honest, man. It's hard to watch sports anymore for me, dude. Yeah, I can watch the Eagles because it's like a once a week commitment. That's good. But baseball, like all this stuff, it's too time consuming. And I find myself at the end of the day, why am I watching these guys do shit? I should be doing. [00:03:09] Speaker A: Goal. [00:03:09] Speaker B: Especially after they lose. [00:03:11] Speaker C: That's just my two cent. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Do you think the eagle will go to the Super Bowl? [00:03:16] Speaker B: I think they got a good shot this year, as they did last year. [00:03:20] Speaker A: Would you go if they did it? [00:03:23] Speaker B: It's Arizona this year. Or was it Arizona last year? Was Arizona last year. [00:03:28] Speaker A: Oh, I thought it was Las Vegas. [00:03:30] Speaker B: It's Las Vegas this year. You're right. [00:03:32] Speaker C: Nope. [00:03:33] Speaker B: Would Joe. Me and Joe. Me and Joe spent some time in Vegas together and it was interesting. I think I'll probably stay home for that. [00:03:52] Speaker A: Uh, that was wild to. [00:03:59] Speaker C: Been to Las Vegas a bunch with my kids and my wife since that fateful trip with KJ. And it's a different experience when you're there with a family, that's for sure. But, yeah, football eagles been, man, I don't know if I could handle that. [00:04:20] Speaker B: Well, let's get down to business here. Why we're all here selling the dream, where we're going to talk a little bit about motivation, we're going to talk about sales, we're going to talk about life in general. Rules are be sincere, tell the truth, and don't take yourself too seriously. I think we're pretty much nailing that so far. I like it. [00:04:42] Speaker A: Well, I've been holding in a fart this whole time, so I'm going to. [00:04:47] Speaker B: Introduce our guest today, who I am beyond excited to have here today. Good luck trying to keep up. My man, Jay. He is fast moving and he's thoughtful, and I hope you're dialed in, I hope you're dialed into this conversation or you're going to miss some gold. But Jay is the author of 30 Days of thought, the founder of Culture Matters, and also the founder of Culture Matters podcast, which is a phenomenal podcast that I had the blessing and was lucky enough to join Jay on one of those podcasts. So I'm really looking forward to today's conversation. Now, Jay, you start your podcast with a quote. So I'm going to follow suit today, and I'm going to start today's podcast with a quote. Tell me if you know if you recognize this, Jay. From the great abyss comes light, and out of the void of nothing presents something, whether good or evil, regardless of your morality, the creed you live by, the God you worship, or the others that may pray that. You may pray for what? We must respect one thing, the decision made upon a thought. Now consider this. Your thoughts subdue or propel your being into action or inaction. That's some truth right there. [00:06:14] Speaker A: Wow. [00:06:15] Speaker B: Right out of 30 days of thought. [00:06:19] Speaker A: I remember writing that in Fishtown. I pulled over to the side of the road. I think when I write, a lot of time I'm trying to work something out in my head and the idea, decision made upon a thought. I was really stressed and overwhelmed and trying to make the company work and share the thoughts that I had and the emotions that I felt. And I remember pulling over while I was driving in Fishtown, some side street and writing that on a pad or something, just frenetically an emotion. I don't think I was crying, but I do. Plenty of that. But I remember that being a very difficult time in my life when I wrote that. Yeah. [00:07:09] Speaker B: Jay, how many of those sheets of paper notepads are in your life where. [00:07:16] Speaker A: You have these thoughts that you just. [00:07:17] Speaker B: Soon got to write them down? [00:07:20] Speaker A: I could show you, because now that I have remarkable, which it is remarkable, maybe I'll pitch that. The closet is full of these things, man. Right over here, you can see all these pads. Wow. I don't know if you could see they're all full. I don't need any of those anymore, though, because of the remarkable technology. It's like an iPad I write on. Yeah, there's no more. Anyway, there's no more pads, but fell over this thing right here. Have you ever heard of it? The remarkable two? [00:08:00] Speaker B: I have not. [00:08:02] Speaker A: Yeah, everything's right in this. Good mentor, friend, someone we've worked with, recommended a few years ago. And I was, no, I gotta write. I gotta write on, you know, the novelty, the excitement, the passion of writing on paper. For six months, I didn't listen. And then once again, Brad, he's always right, and it's impacted not only my life, but everybody we serve. So organized. It's all right here in this. Anyway, there's no recurring revenue for me selling these, so it's such a strong brand. Right? Remarkable. Changed my life. But, yeah, lots of notepads, lots of writing. That came because Jenna said, jay, you're unwell. You should write paraphrasing. And the rest is history. The book came from know. [00:09:01] Speaker B: So there you and, and I've heard it in your podcast many times. Read, write, speak. Share that with everybody, if you don't mind. [00:09:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, the idea is to read, to think, write, to develop and speak, to let go. At the time that I wrote 30 days of thought. It's funny because as I continued to develop, because this is the idea of my own development, one way to learn is to help other people learn is something that I've been thinking for a while. And so the idea of reading to think, writing to develop, and speaking to let go, is clearly laid out in 30 days of thought. And I'll explain the process. But something funny about that is through the podcast, interviewing people. It was a few hundred in. I realized how poorly I listened, so I added one in between the writing and the speak, it was like, listen to hear what is unsaid. It's like, wow, I don't really listen to anyone. Naturally. I love hearing myself talk. I need to hear myself talk. So the reading to think. I started listening to audiobooks in my late teens, early twenty s. I lived with a cuban family for a period of time. That took me in when, after I moved out of my home with my know, when I became an entrepreneur. And Juan Carlos Brito, he's like a father to me. And one day I come home, they're home. And now my couch in his son's basement room in the corner. And I remember him wanting to have dinner with me. It's like, Jay, we need to have some, some amigo time. And so I'm real excited. I'm going to have dinner with Juan Carlos Burrito. I just really looked up to this man. He was a loving, caring guy. And the punchline of the dinner is, you know, you're a handsome guy. You see my girlfriend. Why are you bringing fives and sixes over the house? Now he tells me the story. I swear, this has to do with audiobooks. He tells you the story. It was really powerful. He lost his wife of his whole marriage to cancer. So he had taken a time to reevaluate and didn't know how to date. And of course I'm thinking, what are you talking about? Look at your girlfriend. She's like a ten. Well, he had said, well, the way I got there from where I fell, because he was in love with his wife, was listening to these audio tapes on how to date. So that night at a big dinner, Jay, I'm passing you the baton, my friend. I got these like 30. Keep bringing these eyes and sicknesses. Here's the book. It was like this book, actually, I think I said to the closet, oh, God, I'll be running back and forth. Cds, audio cds. And each one was a guy, a master of communications and how to date. And dude, I listened to those things driving to high school every day. I was living in a different town, going to a different high school. I wasn't even supposed to do that. And that was the beginning of reading to think. When I was listening to, I was listening to these things. My mind wanders and races all over the place. But I just let it. And the idea is like, just let yourself think. Be creative. Don't stop trying to learn just because you may not. Because I may not fit into a box of how to learn. So that's what reading to think is about. It's like pushing yourself to consume information in a way that may work for you and may not be societally normal. So audiobooks have really changed my life in a positive way since then. I've been listening ever since, for hours a day, in between meetings, in between, working constantly when I'm not in some kind of human facing interaction. So it all started with those. It was double your dating by David D'Angelo still have it's emotionally, I hope I have know it's like a symbol of. Because then after high school, after I was asked to leave my second high school, I really did start physically reading and listening to audiobooks and really discovered my propensity of learning. For that it was dormant. So writing to develop is the idea of 30 days of thought. We could stop there because each one has. I can go on and then before you know, I'm not president with you guys, right? I'm just in some kind of. [00:14:09] Speaker B: Let me ask you a question about listening. Sure. I think we all especially type a personality salespeople in general, the successful ones, figure it out and get okay at it. But I feel like we are poor listeners by nature. We're always thinking about what we want to say next, and we're internalizing what they're saying. We're trying to up that counterpoint point counterpoint. What are some of the things you learned to become a better listener? [00:14:43] Speaker A: Preparation before each I have an interview at 04:00 eastern with a CEO of a roofing and siding company. Very established. I have a lot of respect for this person. If I didn't have respect for them and they weren't established, I would prepare the same. Coincidentally, no matter who it is. I'm going to prepare, I'm going to take notes, I'm going to think about the conversation. I'll look up. So maybe I'll go to someone's LinkedIn and I'll look at where they went to school and what they studied. And just on a LinkedIn you could find so much information about someone. And then I'll ask myself questions next to it. Oh, where did they work first? How long were they there? It says it all there. Where did they work after that? I call it a culture map, and I'll do that. That helps me really well, now, instead of going into a conversation, even with, like, a contrived bunch of questions where I could just answer, ask one question, two question, three question, I have content. So when I'm in the dialogue, it's just there, and I can be present. And if some of it becomes relevant, I'll ask deeper. There's that question you just asked me, and then there's what I'm saying now and then based on how committed you are to this conversation or anybody, there is whatever question pops in your mind. Statements can also pop in your mind. We could argue, too. That'd be fantastic. No problem. Be wonderful. We grow that way, too. But I would lean into the question and try to just be open and curious and seek to understand more deeply. Preparation helps me with that. And the more I have prepared and gotten into that ritual, time and space have compressed, whereas it used to be hours of doing that. I can do it in minutes. And it's just mind blowing how quickly. I mean, anyone in sales could take that if they want to increase the likelihood of connecting with someone. The issue with commoditizing some of this lived experience that I'm giving you is, man, I don't know how to fake things. Well, I want to connect with people now. Of course I wanted to connect with people when I didn't listen as well. So I was lacking some information. I was lacking the awareness that I wasn't connecting with people. I had to hear that from those closest to me that I didn't want to listen to. Now, that's a paradox. How did I break that? Well, I did. Life punched me enough to where I was able to eventually figure that out. Other people have helped me figure that out. So the answer is preparation. The answer is actually wanting to learn from people and being very cautious not to make it all about me, because I can as a speaker, too, or being invited even on this inherently, you do want to know things, I have to say, but I'd also like to, like, who's Joe? I didn't even know you'd be here. I'd love to get to know Joe. [00:18:20] Speaker C: Joe's a listener, man. I'm drinking your kool aid, right? I mean, from my experience, kind of what you're saying, selfishly, I'm like, oh, that's a secret. I don't really like to share. But back in my sales days, and even with this, research is key. And I don't like to let on to people when I meet them that I've looked everything I could possibly find out about them online and different things, and then try to, in my mind, before I even make that sales presentation or meet that decision maker, what are the connections that I have that they potentially have? Based on the research that I did, I just kind of keep this all in my back pocket. But I think, to your point, it comes from a genuine curiosity of the other person. And I've learned in my life that what's helped me be successful is that there is every single person you meet, no matter if they're a bum on the street or a CEO, they all have something that you can gain from, whether it be experience or know how, or everyone has something that you don't have. And if you take every situation or meeting or conversation with that in the back of your mind that, like, all right, in a selfish way, what can I take from this person? I want to absorb all of this, almost like I'm sucking their power, and how can I do that? And you find gems, and it's kind of a weird thing to. I say it, and it sounds kind of creepy, but I like to collect people. I collect their experiences, and I met this guy, and you never know when you can draw upon that, when you meet somebody else who has a similar experience, and then all of a sudden, you look like a genius because, you know, a subject matter that maybe some drunk guy in a bus rambled on about to you ten years ago, and you're like, oh, hey, I've heard about this before. So I think that's where it comes from. It's just, how do I figure out how to draw that out of the thing, out of someone that I don't have? So that's where I come from with it. But I like your point, man. It's pretty spot on. [00:20:48] Speaker A: How'd you learn that? Sorry. [00:20:50] Speaker B: So I was just thinking that as connecting, collecting people, you said. I think that it's a weird way to say it for the record, Joe. [00:21:02] Speaker C: But I know, right? [00:21:04] Speaker A: That's not like you're the bone collector. We all have bones. [00:21:09] Speaker B: But when you truly do connect with someone and they genuinely get a sense that you're interested in what you have to say, and they value your experiences and how, in other words, people who I value your experience and your experience can be valuable to me and help me. That's a currency, man. And people will be attracted to you in a very big way if they feel like you value their input. And I think that as you talk about collecting, if you are good at connecting, you will have a great collection of people to turn to, people to draw on when you face adversity or when you need something. I think that the people who have the best networks, the best support networks, are the people who are willing to truly connect and value the thoughts and experience of the people that are in their world. So that is an important part of having influence, too. And I think that whether you're a salesperson or an entrepreneur, you need to have influence. You need to be able to solve problems, you need to be able to serve. And the value of what you bring has a lot to do with your collection of people that are supporting you with ideas. You guys still there? [00:22:43] Speaker C: Yeah, sorry. [00:22:45] Speaker B: I think my computer just glitched. That's an interesting point about collecting. [00:22:53] Speaker C: Yeah. How did I learn that and I didn't learn it? It's out of necessity. I shouldn't say never, but I don't have a normal skill set that everybody else has. And I'm not very employable for corporate jobs and things like that. I'm not never really been fit into that mold. So I've had to figure out ways that I can make a living and do things in an unorthodox way. And your personal how you can connect and what's that? Win friends, influence people or whatever that is. So it just comes out of trial and error and fight or flight really for me was I have to figure this out, otherwise I'm going to starve. So that's where it came from. [00:23:49] Speaker A: Wow. [00:23:52] Speaker B: Jay, tell me when you and I met in 2019 and everything about what you do has evolved since then. Share with us what the evolution of your company has been as an entrepreneur and where did your inspiration come from and what have you been able to build it into? [00:24:15] Speaker A: The inspiration came from just a quick thing. Just want to say to Joe, I take notes every time I interact with a person and I save them in my Evernote, every conversation. And one time I sent one to a mentor of mine, like all the notes from the conversation, and he goes, what the hell is this? You're freaking me out. I just thought that'd be funny to tell Joe because the sharing, right? [00:24:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:24:46] Speaker A: So to answer your question, my inspiration, behaviorally, talk about survival, that Joe mentioned a place that I would go to reorient myself, would be like a Barnes and noble. So one day, years ago, if it was like 14 or 15, probably, I went to a Barnes and noble looking for inspiration and clarity. I had had a business that I started with a partner together with next to no resources, that was growing into something pretty special. But I was in over my head and overwhelmed emotionally, financially, in every way. And I'm walking through this Barnes and Noble, and to my right, it just stuck out to me, this book. Sometimes they just speak to you, the COVID And I walk up to it, I turn the page, and on the left hand side, I don't think it's near my desk, or I pull it. It was called uncontainable by Kip Tindall, 1978. We started the container store with the idea to help people get more organized. And they just hit me with stats. Higher pay per capita for each employee, next to no turnover. And it's all because of our values, our seven values or principles. And I was like, wow. It just spoke to me, and I thought, well, what are ours? What do we stand for? And so from there, I went and started writing what I thought our values were for our organization. And within a few days, I had the opportunity. He was pushing me to run the team meetings. I think he saw something in me that I had kind of repressed, because at earlier stage in my life, I was doing speaking game very naturally to me. And so I held that team meeting, that first team meeting, I introduced all the values to our team, and the first person raised their hand after and was, know. And I said, yeah, dan, this is know, what a waste of time. And my immediate reaction, know, I get that. And I'm not making this like, it was like, I lean into it. It's in my nature to do that. Yeah, man, I'd feel the same way because I made all this up, and I'm sharing with you. You know what? Can you give me a couple of meetings to prove to you why these matter and this matters? He's like, yeah, basically, right. Well, man, every day we met, what's the first value, what's the second? To each person roll call before he went. And I would tell stories and not knowing even what I was doing fully to engage with the team on what we stood for, why we stood for where we were. You know, within a few meetings, Dan was like the biggest supporter as far as I can remember, right. Your memories can change or change over time, but he was a supporter. That experience, it morphed me. I was able to see parts of myself that I hadn't yet seen ultimately that the organization that I helped found was my partner's vision, and I was a part of the season of it, not it. And that's where culture matters is born in that experience of starting that organization. And I'm not sharing what it is because I just reconnected my old partner, and we still have a lot of things to discuss and talk through. And one thing I said I didn't want to do was live in our shadow when I started CN. So I went naked into it, which was a whole nother level of conflict to attempt to get people to take you seriously when it appears as though you never created anything. But I had a lot of confidence from that experience and what transpired. Raising money, putting it all on credit cards, and seeing the return come back and seeing the elect. Culture is one of those things that, you know when it's not right and you feel when it clearly is so experiencing that where people would go from miles around to be a part of something, it changes you and it changed me. So going into to create what would inevitably become a consulting firm centered around corporate culture and branch off into other services and products, in and around leadership and community building and so on and so forth, brand building, I had a tremendous amount of certainty that I was right. My hypothesis that culture mattered so much, so I had to buy the trademark a few years later from somebody that reached out to me on LinkedIn that was in a position of power, very established. It was, know, you better stop talking about this stuff or buy this for me. And that was another situation, like Dan, where I got to call this person, not be a jerk, lean into my, you know, find a common footing. Right? Like, we both care about culture. How did you get into it? [00:30:46] Speaker B: So you bought it? [00:30:47] Speaker A: I take the baton. I'm sorry? [00:30:51] Speaker B: I said you bought it. [00:30:52] Speaker A: Yeah. It took a while to slowly pay them until I reconnected them. I probably shouldn't say their name, but on a live thing, at least they have a high position at a Fortune 50 company, and they just weren't in a position in their life where they were going to pursue entrepreneurship. But we ended on good terms, and I hope that they can become a mentor as we grow this more and more and more. But the evolution went from running around and speaking at various real estate and mortgage and other types of other different industries at events all over the country, with the book and whatnot, talking about culture to being more so behind the scenes with those that are in positions of majority control of companies and helping them understand, become aware of, understand conceptualize and really plot out culture and do it in ways that is not cult like and North Korea esque. I try to avoid that communist dictatorships the best I can. [00:32:02] Speaker C: So that's kind of a good segue into my question, because I've often noticed whether whatever side I'm on of this dynamic, when a company or a team, or they try to really instill these things into the employees, there's a very fine line between let's all do this for the team. This is a team thing, and everybody get on board, and meanwhile, it's not focused. I've always been a big believer that if you develop an individual skill set that's portable to not just that job or that company, to basically everything, then it's going to organically grow. So what are some of the things that a leader can do when they're trying to cultivate or grow this culture, to not make it all about the team and not about the individual growth? [00:33:02] Speaker A: I love the question, because I think when the moment of truth between the values undermining themselves or creating a capacity for people to become better versions of themselves is in the interaction, is in the actual acting out of the values. So when the Dan person contradicted all the time and all the ego I had wrapped up in why I thought it was important for us, me being open to his feedback and asking for permission to prove it is a much different leadership interaction than next question, or get the hell out of here, or you're fired, or whatever that ends up. [00:33:48] Speaker C: Being, or you're not a team player. Right? [00:33:51] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a perfect. The irony, it never ends. And a lot of the job is just unraveling those contradictions. So, yeah, so, like that alienation where, oh, you're not a team player, send them to the camp. I would argue that's not culture. I would argue that is force and dictatorial. That's autocratic, top down. Now, how to actually solve to that when it naturally occurs? Joe and Ken in business for lots of reasons. I mean, if you look at times of crisis, if there's low trust in an organization, you're going to have to shut it down. The populace, the employees don't trust the leadership. The leadership don't have faith that the employees are going to listen. Force is used in times of crisis, reveals the culture. So how we go about doing it is. That's why the relationship that I have permission to cultivate with leadership is so important and really their learning curve, their learning growth. If someone's employed by an organization of a person in a position of power that the worst is when they believe they're open, when they're not, well, it could be. Arguably that's worse than someone that is aware of their clothes and it's just bad. But that's a tough one to compare. If someone's working for an organization that they don't feel it's genuine, that's a tough spot. You have to really look at yourself. Why am I in this predicament? Who am I really? Have I created boundaries in my life? Do I know what I want and where I'm going? My work centers around interacting with whoever owns the corporations, in control of the actual corporations, because it's their level of responsibility, their ability to act out the values and live the values, whatever values that are preached will increase the likelihood of people mirroring that behavior and more open communication occurring. I hope that somewhat answers the question. I do believe this culture doesn't have to be top priority for smaller companies, for them to grow like crazy. Larger institutions are seeking all these things as all sorts of. For macro political and ideological purposes to try to figure out, to keep people happy and things of that nature. I believe that culture creates more shareholder value over the long term, creates more profit over the long term, helps with strategy, helps with innovation, because it's about conversation, open communication, and maintaining that as a company grows. But to build a tremendous amount of sales very quickly, you could go the easy route. Sex, drugs and rock and roll and work 100 hours a week and create as many enemies as possible outside of the organization and get everybody hyped up, young men especially, not listen to ops at all. You can actually get tremendous protocol. [00:37:16] Speaker C: I've been a part of those. We've been a part of a couple of those for a short period of time until they cannibalizes itself? [00:37:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:25] Speaker A: So my view of culture is the purpose and the productivity is coming from a different place. It's coming from where are we actually going? It's coming from an actual product advantage. It's coming from an actual strategic advantage. It's going to come from, let's say, through the top. And that's a constant conversation. So I hope that answers some of it. It's all about what you said, though. You said it, I think, more eloquently than me. We got to live them, live the values. That's what I got from what you said. [00:38:02] Speaker C: So do you think that if you're running an organization and do you think it's easier to change existing culture, or do you think that if you change the culture laws of attraction will bring in people who are more on board with that and weed out the people who aren't. Do you think it's more of an attrition factor or attrition and attraction, or is it? We're changing the mindset of everyone here. One day they come in thinking this, and over time now we've convinced them to think otherwise. [00:38:41] Speaker A: Thank you for the. These are the questions I don't get asked a lot, so very insightful questions. Let's say that I'm in a position of authority, and there's a subordinate. I have a subordinate, a team player that I don't know if they're going to hack it. I mean, if I don't have that conversation with them and then tell the truth, listen, what opportunity do they have to course correct now, if I'm afraid to have that conversation, I may have seven other people, and eventually they all might agree with me. I've never talked to the person at hand, and now somebody else. I just ask them to let them go. That type of behavior happens all the time. So, like, people that were capable didn't get a chance to be capable because they weren't told the truth. My belief is that starts with the level of awareness, education, lived experience, lessons learned the hard way from the top of the organization. And of course, every organizations have different ages, essentially, not just how long they've been in business, but the life cycle that they're in. It could be both, actually, this came to today. I did a podcast this morning at 530 in the morning to be more accountable to this market we're in. Right. Waking up early, going to bed later. And one of the things that came up was because we talk about layoffs and so on and so forth. Like, a general doesn't go into a battle and have pride around how many troops they lost. If we win the battle, we're not going to lose the war if we have no troops left. So if we're in a position of a company where that was what we had to do to sustain, well, then there's other things to learn. Like, did we have the quality type management conversation on strategy? How far ahead of things were we? Were we looking at the quarter or were we looking at five years from now? We sure as heck are not going to be looking five years from now or ten years from now in our business if we're not communicating with the executives that run the organization with us. Sorry, I don't know if you can hear me. There's some lag. Yeah, I can hear you. [00:41:24] Speaker C: We're good. [00:41:25] Speaker A: Just want to make sure I can hear your questions. Did I miss any part of that question? Because it was a really thoughtful question and I want to make sure I. [00:41:34] Speaker C: No, that's pretty much, I feel like that's a big dilemma when someone. Because I can assume that people don't necessarily decide to change the culture or work with a guy like you until there's a problem. Right. They have to identify the fact that, wow, this is something. Maybe I'm making a big assumption here, but if I'm an entrepreneur, I'm starting a business. Priority number one isn't, well, let's grow this culture. That usually seems like there's a catalyst to that. And at that point, you have employees in place and you have identified some sort of situation that requires a change. So that's where I think that it's. [00:42:25] Speaker A: That's a strong psychological observation. [00:42:28] Speaker C: Yeah, they're like, okay, so did I bring in the wrong people? I guess that's more along the lines of my question is, how can you assess the employees that either need to go in a separate direction or are going to buy into this new way of thinking and new culture that's going to be more productive? Where's the benchmark to really assess that? [00:42:55] Speaker A: Well, one of the ways that really works is to ask them, and I mean that very seriously, not in a joking way. It's, are we talking? How are our team meetings? Uncomfortable and exciting. Go ahead, Ken. [00:43:17] Speaker B: Are they aligned with you? Or is it a fair question to ask your people? [00:43:22] Speaker A: Right. Are we gathering, how are we gathering the person that hasn't talked in the meeting in the last two? If I'm in a position of authority, have I asked them what they think? So there's constant contradiction in business, because think about it this. You start anyone that's a salesperson, you start your business as I am the word, I am the truth. I'm here to solve the problems for the customer. The job is to think, to problem solve. Once you get a big enough team, you got to be like Socrates. The more I know is, the more I know. I don't know. I'm the dummy. My job is to help other people think. Like we're so conditioned to think for others that we continue to think for our subordinates. Right? This is what we're going to do. This is how we're going to do it. Now go do it. That's where inverted, starting to ask questions and guiding people towards and really trying to figure out. That's where the leverage comes of interviewing, like attracting, interviewing, of course, filtering quality people that one could get along with and then putting them in a position where they can do their job. But this is the thing that sounds like a utopia or something at some sort in that relationship, there's going to be things out of all of our control that's going to bring us together, have to talk. And how we talk will increase to decrease the likelihood that we actually enjoy each other. [00:45:08] Speaker B: I think you made a great point that your true culture is revealed in cris or adversity. And I also wonder if you view kind of Maslow's hierarchy of needs for self actualization. Is there a corporate triangle where ceos, business owners, entrepreneurs resist focusing on culture because they feel like there are so many other things they have to get to first before they can focus on culture? And is that a fallacy? Is that the reality? Or should they be thinking about it earlier on in the growth creation process? [00:45:56] Speaker A: I in the future, it will likely be more and more important because of how much control the everyday human being not in control of the organization has in their life. So, yes, I would argue, yes, understanding how to not just influence, but be accepted and be willingly followed into a business endeavor I think is going to be more and more and more important for entrepreneurs and leader and managements of companies moving forward. And I believe a big part of that is how much control the everyday person has in their life as opposed to the past. So a lot of things have happened. I mean, the values of our culture are changing for good and for not good. Depending on. There's more transparency, which is think of it like the level of awareness to lead. It has to increase proportional to the level of transparency. Because every single thing all of us say, I mean, this is recorded right now. It's not just a conversation among friends. Everything we've said lives now forever. If that's not a call to increased responsibility, the ability to respond, the ability to recognize emotions and work through them, we all have different lived experiences. There's things that can be said on this call that can make any one of us kind of, wait, where was I? What did I just say? In the context of business, we're talking about the types of people, main street, that bootstrap free market systems aren't necessarily people that have liberal arts degrees. They're people that have been through things and figured out how to survive and thrive and what they're expected. Yes, every day to look more and more like saints, or at minimum, psychologists, when that's not what they are. The leaders of corporations. And a lot of times you get somebody that's built a career. They spent 25 years building something, 30 years to success. They finally want to take a break. Everybody's convinced them that they could finally work on their business. That's never been a truism. As soon as they step away, entitlement, dependency, where's the plan? The market changes. So I think more and more and more we're going to have to be more and more honest with ourselves about what business really is for those that are in business, the leaders of business, I didn't think culture mattered and was going to be more and more important. I would be a stockbroker or something. I think because there's definitely market share, culture shouldn't matter. In a sense, it's just like values. We want to do business with good people, people that are good, but they're like, well, what is good? There's a relativism in it, depending upon who, because we have different lived experiences, we have different educations, we have different innate propensities. If there's ten of us in a room, there's a chance that one of us may have to leave just because they're not at the level of everybody else. The average, if there's a 50 people in the room, three people, just five people rather, may have to leave, and then if there's 110, so that creates conflict. Now I'm of the belief that what will be more and more important for companies to master is how people turn over in organizations. Less shame, more confidence, respect, like humanism, that's going to be a necessity, likely as a force, because of the ramifications that this brings. This pr machine good, right? If that forces people to ask people to leave in more respectful, meaningful ways, I think a lot of the myths around business are going to disappear or they would have to, like, passive this. And all these myths, as soon as the people that manage the business are not managing it, the ones that were special, it changes, you know? You know, so it's like the love of work better be or the responsibility. Here's something interesting about, like, dependence, you know, me not being a parent. I can drive this thing based on my own attachments and egoism under the guise of altruism. As soon as I have children, I better be accountable to them. Like, I better just go to work, because if they don't eat and I'm not able to rear them, I'm really sick. I'm not enthused and I'm not enthused about them. I'm super lost. But if I'm lost, I don't have a real big chip. I'm not going to start some mega company if I have kids. I have to be responsible enough to show up to work so that they're dependent. My character will be utilized even if I'm not that great of a person. That's one of the interesting things about capitalism. It puts to use the worst of us for the best of us. You don't have to be saints to create more value for people. You just have to be driven and you have to work. So I think culture is going to become more and more talked about, at least as our business culture adapts to the big things that are happening in the world, culturally, technologically. I guess a more clear way to say it would be this is my short answer. Leadership is going to have to rise proportional to transparency. And that's a big ask for people that have worked their way up institutions. It's like we're expecting everyone to be perfect. We see this in the renunciation of the historical models of our country. We want them to be know. We want to pick on the pieces that were arguably bad. Jefferson and his slaves, for example. And there's something to be learned there. But we want everyone to be perfect. Maybe there's beauty in that. Less shame, more awareness, more personal responsibility. I hope so. It's a call to be superhuman. That's more theory stuff. Day to day. [00:53:34] Speaker B: That's a lot of pressure. [00:53:37] Speaker C: I would have to say that, and this might be a controversial statement, but if you've made your way to the top of a major corporation, you're a sea level executive. You didn't get there by being the nicest guy in the world or gal. You've ruffled some feathers along the way. [00:54:02] Speaker A: And. [00:54:05] Speaker C: It almost becomes you could be the best, greatest person, to your point, outside of the corporate world, however, you're going to have some bodies and have some enemies along the way. That I think that perpetuates that culture of non transparency, where someone gets to that level and then it's all of a sudden, well, let's turn the PR machine on and make it look like this is the greatest person out there because they represent our brand and so forth. But meanwhile, along the way, you're in a competitive environment and in order to get there, you're fighting to get there. [00:54:49] Speaker A: Sorry, go ahead. [00:54:51] Speaker C: Yeah, that's where I see. I guess the struggle with that for a lot of these companies is the guys at the top, they're dogs, man. They got there and gals, not just guys, but they fought to get there. They're fighters. [00:55:09] Speaker A: Good place to just maybe say that might help somebody out there. What I've observed is the more we cooperate internally together, because that means we're really clear on how we're competing with our competitors. It can lower that political, that bureaucracy, that tribalism, and increase the love and belonging, the pride of work. But remember, what got us here doesn't take us there. As the company grows, it undermines itself. So what's that next level? What's that next level? Education. That's where external advisory comes in, mentors, role models. That's why I asked, does the Philly coach have a coach? I know for a fact that the coach of the Eagles has a coach because I have had the pleasure of meeting that person with many Super bowl rings because they coach these coaches of coaches, so to speak. To what? You're a phenomenon that occurs, which I agree with you, that absolutely well, that competing to the top, there's an inherent competition, because there's only one job that we can all get right if we're all vibing for it. How we compete, just like sports. It's like sportsmanship. How we compete matters. Like in rugby, I used to play rugby, we would drink after with the team that we just got our ass beat by, or we beat, we would drink with them after. That's the culture. It was a sportsmanship. That's part of the sportsmanship. So what I'm saying here is when companies don't have the planning, the strategy, the leadership are not on the same page. They don't trust each other. They haven't been vulnerable enough. They're not really talking about the problems. They've let them go too long. Everybody's competing against each other and they're losing to the competition. And that is something that naturally occurs as a symptom of success. Because success creates entitlements. Profit is an entitlement. Having more money left over after I pay my bills isn't entitlement. I'm entitled to, not labor. I could sit and I could. So success creates reward, which can. It's like, all right, what's next? So that's just something that could be helpful for it naturally manifests itself. The leadership will set the tone to that. And that's where it comes down to what you said about values being, are we living them? Talking about them, I've noticed, is a part of eventually getting to the living of them. Like when children are learning how to potty train, they talk about it. I'm pooping. I need a poop. I have to pee. So I look at creating the company's values as a self awareness exercise. Doesn't actually get the culture right. That's just a part of getting towards culture. And also, there's no culture I found on the planet that is ideal. There are just relative. It's a complex subject. So no matter what, there has to be people that say, this guy Jay, he might be coming from the right place, but he's not my guy. He's not my cup of tea. That's part of freedom. It's how I react, interact with that person that will reveal my character, set the tone for the culture. It creates an openness for future dialogue. And I'm working on the formula. It's been about nine years, so maybe another ten, I'll be able to tell you, oh, yeah, this is what it is. [00:59:15] Speaker B: Wow. I didn't even ask that many questions. This might be a record for the least number of questions asked. And it's just because I have been doing my best to listen and learn. You're an inspiring person, Jay, and the amount of work that you've put into your philosophy is just impressive. And I can tell your authenticity comes through and your humility comes through and your willingness and just your dedication to making sure that you mean what you say and you say what you mean. All that stuff comes through to me, and so I hope that you take that as a compliment, because I think that you're a genuine person. And that's why I really enjoy, when we get together, we have lunch, dinner, or podcasts. It's always awesome. Joe, take us. [01:00:24] Speaker C: It's really. This has been a really good conversation for me personally, because a lot of stuff, everything that we've talked about, I've seen it. I've experienced it. I've seen it on both ends of the table there. And culture can 1 million% make or break your business, good or bad, and is definitely a top down thing. And I feel like it's an act as if situation and lead by example, and everything kind of falls in line. But if you're at the top and you're not aware of where you want to go, it's like anything else. You can have all the best intentions, but if you don't have a roadmap and you're not able to assess what's happening and why and so forth, then you could be going in the right direction. But it's kind of like sailing without a compass. So I think that's another Jay Sharon is solid and I don't think it's talked about enough. I don't think that from a leadership standpoint, I don't think that it's an afterthought at best, and it's only an afterthought when things are bad, typically. So I would definitely anyone listening or businesses that, you know, they're looking to grow and have better work life, really, that's what it comes down to. Better environment. Definitely. Check out Jay man, read the book, talk to him. And this has been great. I've gotten a lot out of. [01:02:17] Speaker B: Awesome. Jay, thank you so much for your time. I am eternally grateful. [01:02:23] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to selling the dream. We know you don't want to miss a single episode, so go subscribe today wherever you get your podcasts, and then make sure to share the show with your friends and leave us a review. Close.